CIO Confessions EP.2 – Benne Holwerda on How AI is Transforming Healthcare

[00:00:00] Gert Jan van Halem: Hello and welcome to this new episode of our podcast. I’m Gert Jan van Halem, your host. And today with me is Benne Holwerda, CIO of the Rivas Zorggroep. 

[00:00:16] Jingle: This is the CIO Confessions, a podcast by Devoteam.

[00:00:26] Gert Jan van Halem: Benne, thank you for joining us and glad to have you here. First of all, maybe an introduction in how you became the CIO of the Rivas Zorggroep and what the Rivas Zorggroep does. 

[00:00:35] Benne Holwerda: Yeah, that’s a good question. Hello everybody. I have been always working on the line between IT and business.

[00:00:42] And my mission is to make work or services more efficient and more fun. By the use of technology. So that’s been like the line throughout my career. I’ve done that in by an internet service provider. I’ve done it at a municipality and for [00:01:00] until I started at Rivas, I was the vice president of an IT company that services the four major cities in the Netherlands.

[00:01:09] And I was working there. I was approached with the question, Do you want to work in healthcare? And I let the question sink in and I thought that’s it’s an area where there’s a lot to do and it’s interesting and it’s really yeah, helping people get better or get a good quality of life in their final stage.

[00:01:26] It’s a beautiful thing to contribute to. And the Rivas Zorggroep, you asked it’s a company based in Horkum. 

[00:01:34] Gert Jan van Halem: Horkum being in the Netherlands.

[00:01:36] Benne Holwerda: Yeah. It’s a small town in the Netherlands, like a 30 minute drive from Rotterdam. Yeah. And we have both a hospital and what’s the English term?

[00:01:45] The nursing homes like 17 nursing homes. And we do also care at home for people. So we have a broad variety of of health services in the bigger region. 

[00:01:57] Gert Jan van Halem: Yeah. And so your experience is in a lot of [00:02:00] different areas. Yes. What makes healthcare? Is it specific? Is it different? What do you see in healthcare?

[00:02:07] What might be different for IT than in other areas? 

[00:02:11] Benne Holwerda: One of the things, one of the things I like about healthcare is that people are really passionate about giving care. And that’s also the main focus. And I think a lot of the care has to do about people taking care of people. And if you’re like washing someone or if you’re doing surgery technology or IT it’s not really the first thing.

[00:02:36] People think about in healthcare, so it’s really just if you have little children, you have to bathe them and do everything and you’re not like where’s my app to to put my baby in the bath or something like that. So the focus is not very much on on it. I think a bit more on technology because there’s a lot of technology to help you do surgery or.

[00:02:56] Maybe to lift someone or [00:03:00] all those kind of things.

[00:03:01] Gert Jan van Halem: So is IT seen as a burden for them because they have to do the administration maybe in IT system or maybe it holds them back to do other stuff? 

[00:03:10] Benne Holwerda: Yeah, there was a research lately that Percentage of people in care would rather have no IT at all than what they have currently.

[00:03:17] Okay. Which is for my role. But it it’s the big challenge. So how Yeah. How to make work fun also with IT and have it really help you in the things you have to do. And I think one of the main things you said administration, and it’s administration for two reasons. Hey, it’s the, for the financial, you have to go to the insurance company to to de to get paid.

[00:03:38] And so you have to do a lot of administration on that part. And of course, there’s also the liability accountability if you make a mistake. So you have to do a lot of administration to make sure that if there’s a lawsuit in 20 years, that everything is documented perfectly. So I think it’s more about how we organize society and what we [00:04:00] expect and how much we do or do not trust.

[00:04:03] Caregivers to, to do their best and what is impacting the, this this results. Yeah. 

[00:04:10] Gert Jan van Halem: So it’s part of your job. Then also let’s see how I can minimize the burden that I put on the caregivers for the IT interaction or, I’m not sure how you call it. 

[00:04:22] Benne Holwerda: Yeah. I think that’s a, that’s one big part in, in, in the Netherlands.

[00:04:25] We also have programs like ontregeltezorg, which is how can we diminish the administrative burdens in the care. But what you also see is that the government says this and has a program on it and at the same time develops new. New laws and new regulations that will increase the the administrative burden.

[00:04:44] So it’s it’s a wish that is not really coming true. And maybe this is one of the parts where AI or gen AI can be a solution, but then you also have, I have this example lately that if someone in an elderly in a nursing home needs [00:05:00] more care. Then you get into a new level of care and you have to ask the insurance company if that’s okay.

[00:05:07] You say this is the situation we should move it to the next level. And you do an appliance, you have to fill in a form to do that. And then the form will be judged by someone at the insurance company. We will say that’s okay. Or it’s not okay. But the professional already knows. That you need this higher care.

[00:05:26] So one of the things I thought we should have a standard text. Just if it’s a case, you just push the button and the text goes to the, but the insurance company then says you didn’t really look because it’s a standard text. So that’s like the world we’re living in. And then you could say let’s use gen AI to make the text every time just a little bit different.

[00:05:45] So it should be a nice solution. But then again, if you’re on this track. You’re bypassing the real problem, which is, we should look at another way at those regulations and administrative burdens. So that’s a bit of the path that we’re [00:06:00] searching. 

[00:06:00] Gert Jan van Halem: Interesting. And you mentioned the Rivas group does hospitals and also nursing homes.

[00:06:04] So you, you do cure and care. Do you see a difference there in what they need and support from you?

[00:06:10] Benne Holwerda: Yeah. If you look at a hospital, then there’s much more. IT involved if it’s for the all the pictures and information of medication and the ECGs and everything that you have to put in the file.

[00:06:24] So that’s the hospital is always out, can you repair someone? And if you’re in an elderly home, it’s mainly about how can we give you a dignified last period of your life? So that’s a big difference. And sometimes it’s difficult if you’re in one company, because then the the the tendency is to say we are one company, so we will do this all in the same way.

[00:06:47] In this nursing home, you want to just keep it calm, not too much fuss and keep it very easy. Also the people who work there. I’m much more practically educated and not so much into the [00:07:00] sophisticated IT things. If you’re a medical profession, you say give me one screen with every information on it and lots of buttons so I can just do it the way I want to myself.

[00:07:09] Yeah. So there’s also a big difference in, in approaching also the UX. And the way you, you organize the processes. 

[00:07:15] Gert Jan van Halem: Yeah. Interesting. So if you you’ve been doing this for, I think four and a half years. So if you look back at that period what are the big projects, maybe the projects that you’re most proud of or the biggest change that you make?

[00:07:27] What kind of things do we do?

[00:07:30] Benne Holwerda: Yeah, but one, one of the biggest problem projects was the our electronic health records the system we use for it, they needed a big upgrade and that’s a lot of work and it’s throughout the company. So that was a very big project. Which is really like an update of what you’re already using.

[00:07:47] So that’s not the most innovative thing or the thing that really has an impact on the way people work. I think if you look at the nursing call systems in elderly homes that you say we’re going to introduce technology. For example, [00:08:00] in the night, if someone is sleeping and goes out of bed in the middle of the night, is it a problem or not?

[00:08:05] So you have a cut like these cameras and alarm buttons and all those type of technologies that we’ve introduced in these homes. To to enable less people in the night shifts to take care of the people. And with the shortage, we have, we’ve got the aging problem in Europe.

[00:08:24] Where the population of about 70 is like doubling in the coming years and the people who are younger it’s about the same or less. We need a lot of more work to be done in in care and that’s, we don’t have the people for that. So we really have to look for the solutions.

[00:08:40] How can you do, provide more care with less people, 

[00:08:44] Gert Jan van Halem: but that’s a bit You said before people don’t want it because they want to care for people and it is a burden. And then you say, okay, we have to introduce a lot of IT to make sure that we can do it with less people. That’s sounds like a bit of a balance that you have to strike somewhere. 

[00:08:59] Benne Holwerda: That’s [00:09:00] right. And that’s always the challenge. And for me, it’s a lot of the time. If someone asks for technology, it’s also the question of why do you I, the example earlier about administrative burden. What you really should be doing is kill the reason for the administration and not introduce technologies to to solve it.

[00:09:20] But sometimes there’s no other way around it. But. It’s always the check is technology helping or not in this situation. And I think especially if it goes to it’s also if you have a in the hospital, if you have a device an MRI scan or radiology or whatever, and it will automatically connect.

[00:09:39] To the patient records. That will help because you don’t have to do it manually. Or if you introduce AI in radiology to to determine if there’s something wrong and what it is. That’s also something where there’s really an advantage of in technology, but there are other areas where it’s not so much in a solution.

[00:09:57] Gert Jan van Halem: Yeah. And I could also imagine that adoption. [00:10:00] So yes, you have to introduce it because you have to do more work with less people and it is one of the ways to solve that. But adoption with the people might be a difficult topic. 

[00:10:11] Benne Holwerda: Yeah. So what I started with I think a year and a half ago was really introduced design thinking as our method of making change in the right way and have adoption part of the, and then there was really like a culture we do this project, it’s about a new process, but in reality, it was about a new application.

[00:10:29] And then we went a lot of time went into testing is the what are the bugs in application and is it working? And then we went live. And then we had to run to the next IT project. And the people who had to use it were like I can still do my work in the old fashioned way. Let’s do that. So that’s a real adoption problem.

[00:10:47] And also increases the dissatisfaction with IT because you’ve got this new solution and you don’t know how it works. You’re not into healthcare because you like IT, you’re into healthcare because you like to care for people. And that’s [00:11:00] why I started to introduce design thinking as a principle and a way of adopting.

[00:11:05] Because what we do is, for example, we start with a design sprint where we, 

[00:11:10] Gert Jan van Halem: yeah. Could you explain for our listeners a little bit of design thinking might not be known for everybody. What do you try to do?

[00:11:18] Benne Holwerda: What I try to do is to make sure that in the start of the process, you involve the people.

[00:11:23] We’ll have to make the adoption in designing what you want. I can explain it with a design sprint that we do. Sometimes it’s, we have a problem somewhere in our organization. And then we will ask the people who do that work on a daily basis to come together in a group and in a really structured way.

[00:11:42] Let them think about how am I doing my job and if I see the possibilities also of technology, but also of the way you can do your work if you could think about it, how would it be ideally for you? Where do you get your energy? How would it be easier for you if you designed it with that group?

[00:11:58] Then you will have something [00:12:00] that, that the colleagues will say I wanted to, when can I finally get this improvement instead of, Oh no, not something different again. 

[00:12:06] Gert Jan van Halem: Yeah. And that requires a complete different set of skills in your team as well, because I think traditionally the CEO has the IT guys, they have the tools and they manage the tools.

[00:12:17] You have all these care people that don’t want the tools and somebody has to bridge that. 

[00:12:21] Benne Holwerda: Yeah, so it’s also it’s not so much business IT alignment anymore as it is really co creation. Yeah. For me to introduce this way of working, it’s really with the the precedence of the departments and the divisions.

[00:12:33] And to get them enthusiastic about his way of working. And because the first thing if, for example, if we do a design sprint, they say, I want five of your caregivers to be a week free of everything. And just on this design sprint that’s a big problem because there are not enough people. So it’s really an effort and a sacrifice to say I will have these, this group of people not doing their regular work, but thinking about how we can improve.

[00:12:58] Gert Jan van Halem: And what’s that driven by [00:13:00] you? So did you start because I sometimes see in when I talk to CIO that there’s balance there that you have to struggle. So you’re a CIO , you have to do it as cheap as possible. And on the other end, they do expect a little bit of innovation, but it can be too expensive.

[00:13:13] And so you probably want to drive this, but how do you convince them this is the way to go? This is where we. 

[00:13:19] Benne Holwerda: One of the problems in healthcare in the Netherlands is that it’s a lot of subsidized innovation. So you can only you get just enough money to to maintain your business as usual, but your innovation has to come from from like the Integrale Zorgakkoord and a big program to transform healthcare in the Netherlands.

[00:13:39] And the opportunity came by to have a subsidized project to introduce it the first time. And that was for me the take to say, okay we have got this problem here. Let’s introduce this method and if we like it, we can make it bigger. And if we don’t then we had one project and we’ll stop afterwards.

[00:13:58] And what you [00:14:00] saw is it was about if you want to live in a nursing home, you first come on a waiting list. Yeah. And then you’re on a waiting list and then nothing happens. And then you get a call like within five days, you’re expected to live in our. Nursing home. 

[00:14:14] Gert Jan van Halem: Within five? 

[00:14:15] Benne Holwerda: Yeah.

[00:14:15] Something like that. Okay. So that’s you can imagine that it provides some stress with the one and was to move and with the relatives. So we did a redesign with the design sprint of the process where you much more have like different phases of waiting in which you ask someone to prepare, but also to also already provide some information that if you start living with us that we already know more about who you are and you don’t expect.

[00:14:40] You can do the administration in advance. You can have the the elderly person or their relatives fill out the information already digital, so you don’t have to ask everything. And you can prepare them. What do we expect if you come live in one of our nursing homes? And that, for example the child or the neighbor can still provide some [00:15:00] kind of care if you’re in a nursing home, which is one of the ways we want to solve the problem of the aging, that other people can help as well in a nursing home.

[00:15:08] It doesn’t only have to be the professional. So we redesigned the process. And when we did it we started, we went live in one of the nursing home and we got like the order 16 saying, when can I please join? And that was for me the trigger that this way really works. And it also, so very much helps in adoption.

[00:15:26] Gert Jan van Halem: But that’s awesome because in those, in all example that you gave somewhere, there was a digital form, but there’s not a lot of IT in this story, right? That it’s. Redesign the process, see where we can improve and maybe it can help. Yeah. 

[00:15:38] Benne Holwerda: And I think for me that’s somewhere that’s the key because I’m not I’m CIO, but I’m not just interested in putting IT everywhere.

[00:15:45] I want my, my, my mission is to have people do their job as good as possible. possible and provide the right services. And in healthcare, maybe more than in other places, it’s about designing and implementing a good [00:16:00] process, a good way of working, a good way of delivering the service or the care.

[00:16:04] I’ve had it’s a funny example. I’ve tried to introduce a RPA. 

[00:16:08] Gert Jan van Halem: Yeah. 

[00:16:09] Benne Holwerda: Those little administrative robots. And what we discovered is an either a partner company that, that would help me introduce it. And everything time they went in to analyze a process where we thought there could be room for an RPA.

[00:16:23] Then we did the analysis and we showed it to the people who did the job. And he said, Oh, but if I start working like this regularly. Let me save a lot of time. So the process in itself was not really optimized. And that in a lot of cases, it helps much more to redesign your way of working than to implement a lot more it.

[00:16:42] And if your process is better and you can standardize a bit about different parts of the organization, then you’ve also got the skill to do RPA or Gen AI or all those kinds of technologies. So I think we’re much more in the. Process of improving process, 

[00:16:57] Gert Jan van Halem: but that, that also means that as a CIO you [00:17:00] move more into the business.

[00:17:02] Yeah. And a bit out of the IT . Yeah. That IT is just, this is the tool that I have to support you, but let’s fix your problem. 

[00:17:08] Benne Holwerda: Yeah. And I think in healthcare, in the experience of the people working in the healthcare, it should also be like that. Yeah. Because they’re not interested so much in IT .

[00:17:15] And for me, it’s like my background. 

[00:17:18] Gert Jan van Halem: And do you see that as a solution towards that problem that you mentioned before that they don’t want it because this makes it almost invisible. You just talk about their work and oh yeah, I can support you with this part. Yeah. 

[00:17:30] Benne Holwerda: And that they want to, a surgeon also wants the right knife to, to perform the operation.

[00:17:34] And so for them, IT is just like tools. 

[00:17:38] Gert Jan van Halem: And do you also see that having an effect on your team that it moves more to a process maintenance and then real IT supports. Management mindset. 

[00:17:47] Benne Holwerda: We are making progress in that direction. Yeah. But we still have to maintain this big EHR system.

[00:17:52] Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It’s also still a lot of the regular IT maintenance we have to, and because also our system cannot [00:18:00] go into the cloud. We have our own data centers I’ve also got a lot of their regular base iT functions. And in place there. 

[00:18:06] Gert Jan van Halem: And you mentioned in your story a couple of times, AI .

[00:18:09] Yeah. I saw in some research that AI is one of the things that a lot of healthcare providers expect to implement next year in the coming years. Yeah. Any plans at the Rivas group for AI solutions? 

[00:18:19] Benne Holwerda: Yeah, we’re, for a longer period, we’re already involved in a pilot with the, you’ve got the Association of General Hospitals in the Netherlands and they together started a program on on care algorithms.

[00:18:32] And we are one of the pilot hospitals where we are developing this and it’s aimed at if you’re coming to the emergency, what is the chance that you will be admitted and for what period of time? 

[00:18:43] Gert Jan van Halem: Predictive algorithm. Predictive algorithm, 

[00:18:46] Benne Holwerda: Yeah. That’s that’s I think one of the key parts where we’re piloting right now.

[00:18:52] Gert Jan van Halem: And how does that help? Because if you can predict it or not, there’s always a number of people that have to be admitted. 

[00:18:58] Benne Holwerda: Yeah, but if you look at [00:19:00] the situation in the Netherlands, then you see that if the hospital is full, you cannot welcome people at the emergency. Because if they have to go if they need a bed in the hospital, you don’t have the room.

[00:19:13] So then you close your emergency and they have to go to another hospital. And and it’s really like a change. You’ve got emergency, then you’ve got the hospital with all the beds, and then maybe after you’ve got the, what I mentioned, the other parts of the organization. Yeah, like the nursing homes or, and maybe someone has to go from the hospital to nursing home.

[00:19:31] You have to organize and optimize the capacity because there’s, we are pretty much booked. So it’s a key to optimize. And then it’s really important to predict the chances that someone has to be admitted. 

[00:19:43] Gert Jan van Halem: Yeah. And these are applications that I call classical AI, because this is something that we predictive AI is.

[00:19:50] Of course, since what is now two years or so, we’re all GenAI , I will solve all our problems. We’ll also solve your problems. Peace is coming. 

[00:19:56] Benne Holwerda: Yeah. Finally. Yeah. That’s it. I [00:20:00] think one of the main issues still with GenAI I think is that you have to be really careful with the patient’s health data.

[00:20:09] And that’s one of the reasons why I think in general, in the healthcare, we are careful with implementing those kinds, even if it’s just in our Microsoft Copilot or whatever. Because you don’t really know if the, if all those healthcare data just stays in our health record system or that it’s also used somewhere else to be careful.

[00:20:32] And then if then you could say but you could still make something of yourself or have a partner organization develop something with you. But then I say, our hospital is one of the smallest in the Netherlands, then I’ll wait for some of the others to develop. And if they have solved the child diseases in it and it is working properly and it is cost effective, that’s the moment that we can step in.

[00:20:54] Gert Jan van Halem: And then I think it’s also for the context of our listeners healthcare data is, I think, the highest level in [00:21:00] the GDPR rules, right? Yes. Yeah, I think. You don’t want to take any risks with people’s healthcare data. 

[00:21:06] Benne Holwerda: No that’s very sensitive. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. 

[00:21:10] Jingle: IT Confessions Box.

[00:21:13] Every IT career has its challenges. In the Confessions Box, our guests share their lessons learned and resilience gained.

[00:21:23] Gert Jan van Halem: And in these years interesting story on, on what and how that’s different than somewhere else, but what is your biggest lesson you think that you that you had? 

[00:21:32] Benne Holwerda: Good question. Also a reflective question. Let me, I think what I didn’t know when I first came to healthcare is that the doctors they have a different position within the hospital and they have like their own basically a different company within the company.

[00:21:51] If you want to If you want to change, or if you want to implement something, then you really have to involve them as [00:22:00] well. Yeah. And that’s one of the things I was not aware of before I came into healthcare. So that’s one on the, in the area of healthcare. And is 

[00:22:08] Gert Jan van Halem: it hard to do, or are they quite open minded for IT solutions?

[00:22:13] It’s maybe a little bit different than the real caregivers in nursing homes. 

[00:22:16] Benne Holwerda: They see IT mainly also as one of the instruments and it just has to work. No fuss. It needs to work and it needs to work the way I want it to, of course and they’re highly educated and have pretty often their own way of working to it.

[00:22:32] So also to have the conversation also with the doctors about. How can we standardize on some parts to to improve the benefits of technology? That, that’s a pretty difficult conversation. And that’s why I think we in the Netherlands and all around the world, you have the chief medical information officer, which is like a practicing doctor that, that will for one or two days in a week also be the bridge with those [00:23:00] doctors and IT.

[00:23:01] Gert Jan van Halem: So your counterpart In the, for the doctors organization. 

[00:23:04] Benne Holwerda: Yeah. So we work, our counterpart, we work together in, in making technology work. 

[00:23:08] Gert Jan van Halem: Yeah. Yeah. I can imagine that the doctors themselves are quite influential as well in the hospital. Of course. 

[00:23:14] Benne Holwerda: Without them, there wouldn’t be much operating or exactly.

[00:23:17] Yeah. Yeah. Happy to help them. And the other thing I really learned, especially in in healthcare, it’s really people taking care of people. 

[00:23:24] Gert Jan van Halem: Yeah. 

[00:23:26] Benne Holwerda: And and that’s what really matters. 

[00:23:28] Gert Jan van Halem: Yeah. Yeah. And that, that kinds of makes your own role. It’s relative to all these big IT projects and ideas, but we’re here to help people and we are people to help people.

[00:23:41] That’s what we do. 

[00:23:42] Benne Holwerda: And you can also start the whole, I think, don’t think it’s for this podcast, but you can also start the whole philosophical questions about, if you’re old and alone and you’ve got like a robot kitten or a robot person keeping you company, is that the way you want to live as a human [00:24:00] being?

[00:24:00] So all those kinds of questions are somewhere further down the road, I think. But that’s one of the things you think about if how will you organize technology? And the possibilities is every possibility good to use or those questions also lie somewhere on the horizon. 

[00:24:17] Gert Jan van Halem: And it’s also what you said about IT in healthcare, probably these robots taking care of people is an idea that we as IT people think might work, but I’m not sure if the healthcare industry is there as well. 

[00:24:29] Benne Holwerda: No, and it’s also for the listeners of this podcast, imagine your father or mother on that age and what would you want?

[00:24:38] And sometimes it’s really, if you’ve got like a robot cat, people can really get a satisfaction and a feel of companionship out of it. But is it? Is it really how we as humans want to live our lives? And so that’s also cares about from people to people. But if you look at the other ways that you can do a lot of it yourself.

[00:24:58] And I think that’s one of the [00:25:00] major developments in the coming years will be really about finding your own health information with gen AI and that there’s a big room there. Or the monitoring with your smartwatch and all kinds of sensors that you have. So I think what we will see in the coming years is that a lot of healthcare will be self provided so you can organize it yourself.

[00:25:18] And I think the bit that probably the big tech will be there. 

[00:25:22] Gert Jan van Halem: But there’s also again, a human question because you and me will keep up with that, but not everybody, because it requires a level of understanding of technology to be able to do it yourself. 

[00:25:32] Benne Holwerda: Almost everybody can use Facebook. 

[00:25:34] Gert Jan van Halem: Oh, I don’t, you don’t want to, or you can’t, for sure.

[00:25:41] And maybe with with the younger people getting older, they all know how it works. Of course. 

[00:25:47] Benne Holwerda: Sometimes, but it can also, there are also, that’s one of the things we also discovered because at Rivas , we also look at do the people have the digital skills to do the work. And there you see that I [00:26:00] think in all age groups, there are groups who are not familiar with using technology. 

[00:26:04] Gert Jan van Halem: Excuse me. 

[00:26:07] Benne Holwerda: And I think that the biggest difference is if you’re like 20, you’ll learn much quicker how to use it than if you’re like 64. Yeah. 

[00:26:16] Gert Jan van Halem: So just we’ve been talking for half an hour or so, so we have to come to an end someday. That’s too bad. Yeah, but I think interesting question for our listeners maybe is you’ve done this for four and a half years with Kivos now, but you have a longer experience in the past.

[00:26:30] What would be tips or tops for people that listen and say, Hey, I want to learn as a CIO. I want to make my next step. What do you think is for the role of a CIO, an important thing to invest in? 

[00:26:43] Benne Holwerda: For me, it’s always you have to know the business, cooperate with them, not just align once or twice a year, but really get involved in what is the surface or the process or whatever that’s being done at your company.

[00:26:58] And I [00:27:00] also like to just go with with work shifts with someone in healthcare just to see how, what it’s like. to be able to understand what it’s about. And I think that’s, that would be for me the key just getting involved in the business itself to understand what it is you’re supporting and helping with technology and IT.

[00:27:20] Gert Jan van Halem: Very important lesson indeed. So we went from IT to philosophy about humans and robots and how we work together in the future. Yeah. So it’s a broad overview. Yeah. Thank you for that. It’s very interesting to hear how it works in healthcare. I think it’s a bit different than in other industries that I’ve visited.

[00:27:36] Yeah. Yeah. So very interesting overview. Thank you so much for joining us. And hope you enjoyed it as well when you listen to this and see you in the next one or here the next one. You’re welcome. Thank you. Thanks.

[00:27:49] Jingle: Discover other podcasts on https://www.devoteam.com/podcast/ devoteam AI driven tech [00:28:00] consulting.